U.S. Supreme Court takes up ‘reverse discrimination’ case
26 Comments Published by clay January 11th, 2009 in State and Local Politics, U.S. Politics.Continuing the discussion of the 5th and 14th Amendment, what do you think of this case? Please remember to include evidence that you read the article. Reverse discrimination claim
When I read the first portion of the article I thought about how it is true that different races can grasp differing topical questions. I heard they made the SAT’s to be unbiased. To fit all races. When is talked about Frank Ricci and how he studied eight to thirteen hours a day and spent more than $1,000 on books and paid someone record them into tapes, I think it was more of a study issue than a race issue. I think that they were not discriminating on race they were just asking questions that need to be known on the field. I think what would help this case is if they looked into how many hours each job applicant studied then they could come out with a better conclusion. I honestly believe it was because the people who passed studied.
One of New haven’s main objectives in hiring 15 new firefighters was to diversify its workforce. Knowing this I think it is NOT a violation of the VII of the Civil Rights Act that they decided to scrap the project when one of their main objectives was not fulfilled. However I do think that each firefighter should receive some kind of financial stipend or other means of compensation because they all invested a substantial amount of energy in vain I might add, into that strenuous firefighter exam.
The supreme court Vs. The New Haven firefighter Force is a unique case that should be used as an example to other prospective diversificators (if that’s a word loll). If the New Haven firefighter Force wanted to diversify they should have been straighter forward with it in the beginning by doing things like holding a reserve amount of spots specifically for African Americans for example.
I am okay with this one case being thrown out but if
situations like it continue, it would be a major signal that some amendment changes are due to be made.
WOW. this is one of the most ridiculous things i’ve ever heard. so … let me sure i’m getting this straight: these firefighters took a test for a promotion, the test givers wanted to make the test equal for all races, but only a handful of caucasian and two hispanics passed so the scrapped the test and promotion?! daaamn. that’s really dumb.
my whole point of view on this issue is pretty simple. if someone didn’t pass a test, it is their fault that they didn’t pass. we shouldn’t punish those who rightfully passed the test. i can see why you could make a test culturally unbiased: my dad [a third-world immigrant] was given an exam in college that asked him a question involved ceasar salad. he didn’t know that cesear was a type of salad and was confused because he thought the question was referring to cesaer the ruler. i wish this article defined “any bias that might disadvantage minority candidates”.
the article also mentioned that the fire department was hoping to make a diversed management. it reminds me of how many businesses and groups [such as sororities and fraternities] turn down applicants in preference to others so that they can meet their ‘racial quota’. people have become so afraid of being racist, they are willing to sacrifice quality and competence.
A federal judge threw the case out. “The decision to disregard the test results affected all applicants equally,” US District Judge Janet Bond Arterton said in a 48-page opinion. Those who passed the test were only given an opportunity for promotion, she said, not a guaranteed job
Okay this part kind of stuck out at me because I don’t really think it did affect all the applicants equally. The ones who didn’t pass were probably given the chance to revel in the loss of the ones who actually passed, but aside from that I don’t really see how this was fair because if people with more diverse races had passed, would they have then promoted everyone instead of just taking back what was about to be given to them?
I do agree with Amira though in the sense that I think tests should be made more culturally unbiased. I suppose you could say that it makes things more ‘equal’.
I feel bad for Frank Ricci. He spent so much money on test taking! God! Tests are so stupid anyway! What do they even really trying to prove aside from I can remember this much information about this certain subject. I would think that certain jobs have to do more with reflexes more than anything [ie. firefighting, ladycops (HAHA INSIDE JOKE), race car driver, etc.].
Discrimination nowadays isn’t much of a black and white issue the way it used to be. It’s more of a grey area, in terms of subjects we use it with. You know?
Oh my bizzle! I wrote that up there ^^^
I just used Josh’s computer to type up my blog. Ahahaha. Oops!
Well thats dumb. Why even bother to test people if your not going to give them the positions. The city wasted people time, and money. They should give Frank Ricci part of his life back. How can these tests even be biased to a certain race. It’s Firefighting for heavens sake. The fact that race was even considered for the position is wrong. I think we need to get get over this whole trying to sprinkle everything with diversity thing. Don’t get me wrong I love diversity, but does every nook and cranny have to be affected. Tests shouldn’t be geared to help one certain group thats not fair for anyone. I sure wouldn’t like it if a test was made just to help Hispanics like me out. I would feel as if I wasn’t good enough to pass the test everyone else took. How can the city say that they weren’t being racist when they were clearly being influenced by other people.
Just because the city of New Haven wanted to diversify their firefighting unit does not mean that they should scrap all results that do not meet this goal. The people who passed studied for the test and should be rewarded for passing. If no blacks passed I am sure it was probably from a lack of study or preparation rather that race. Therefore it is wrong that the whites and two hispanics who passed are not even rewarded for passing the test. Race had no part in who could pass and not pass this test, and so therefore the decision made by the test administrators to ignore the results of the test is a violation of the soldiers 5th and 14th amendment rights.
I honestly don’t think that this is a valid claim of reverse discrimination, because although the test was reacially biased in order to help African-American candidates, its only because the originnal test would have eliminated any chance of an African-American candidate getting a chance to be a lieutenant or even a captain. But the fact of the matter is that even though the test was racially biased, not only was the test disregarded but it was ruled that even though the original test was race-nuetral, the New Haven Fire Department had taken race into account, but it wasn’t a deciding factor to the hiring of a qualified candidate. But considering that the 5th amendment pertains to the due process clause of the Constitution, which was not violated in this particular instance, but the 14th amendment clause seems like a warrented claim, it is still going to be something that needs not only further justification but further litigation. As for Frank Ricci, I think that the New Haven Fire Department should compensate him finacally for his loss, but only because he spent one thousand dollars to study for the test, and they just decided to get rid of the test altogether, either that or offer him a chance to get promoted because of his exceptionally high test scores.
This is how life sucks … seriously. Its like how colleges are trying to get more an minority rather than Asians and white. I’m like split on how this case is like it is nice to try to get an variety of races, so the place doesn’t seem racist. BUT come on their are people who qualified and can do the job right. So this is discrimination by not hiring the people who qualify. But I wonder how this case turn out if this when to a higher court???
___________________________________
Quote of the week:
Don’t cry because it happen. Smile because it happen.
even though i dont know what was exactly on the test i think the test the firemen took were unbias but the decision to discard them because no african american passed and a few number of hispanics was reverse discrimination. also its unfair that the other firefighters put a large amount of effort into passing the test for it to thrown out the window. i would be upset if my good grades werent counted just because a group of others didnt’ do well.
This was interesting to me, i do not think that it was fair that no one got the job. if people passed and they qualify why wouldnt they get the job? they really didnt even have to make them take a test if no one was going to get the job. i mean i think it was fair for them to change the test to help all races, but if they dont pass then they dont pass. the ones that did pass should have got the job. if all african americans passed and no whites do you think the africn americans would still get the job? honestly i think they wouldnt care about the whites not getting the job..
its plain and simple if they passed they get the job, if they dont…they dont get the job…..
why did they have to make this so complicated and not do it te right way?
wow! So I think that this whole argument is pretty dumb. First of all, I don’t think this was reverse racial discrimination because its not like the city threw out all the white firemens’ tests, promoted the hispanic guy and let all the black firemen tale a waaay easier test. They just threw out all the tests and started over with the whole process. And, yeah, that does kinda stink for the fireman who spent all that time and money studying, but that’s life and its not always fair.
And second of all, I just think throwing away all the tests because no black people passed is ridiculous. That’s their fault that they didn’t study long or hard enough and that they just didn’t pass, not the city’s fault. I think the city should have just promoted the guys who passed the test and been done with it. There’s always next time for the blacks and hispanics to get promoted.
fyi…I think those guys who passed have a right to be mad though. I’d be mad if the test I studied really hard for was just thrown away too.
ok so i think this article was saying how first they wanted their fire department to be more diverse, so they set up like a promotion test thing but it backfired and only white people & two Hispanics passed? so instead they just threw everything out? yeah i’d be pissed i mean i feel sorry for mr. ricci who studied like hardcore and wasted all his money, like that’s messed up. I agree with whitnee i think that if their test was going to be thrown out they should have at least like warned them, or like compensated them or something because it was a waste of money for both the candidates and the city.
but it is true, like the people who passed should have been able to pass, i mean the ones who failed obviously failed for a reason: they did not know the material, so really having them there would be pointless.
overall this is not fair. they should have just let those people who passed, get their promotion or whatever they were gonna get.
mmmkayyy so this is stupid hahaha. So they tried to make the test so that minorities could pass too, and since too many white people passed and not enough minorities they’re like, well, nevermind, no promotion for you!
The firefighters who did pass studied and worked hard and that sucks! The black people or whoever should have studied more! They obviously didn’t want the promotion THAT much. I don’t know about reverse discrimination though. They didn’t throw the test out BECAUSE they were white. Well, sorta. But not really. Overall I can understand the firefighter’s frusturation, and they shouldn’t have thrown out the tests, but I think they’re taking it too far with the whole “reverse discrimination” thing. White people are people too!
I can’t believe what I read and that all this is happening. We live in a country where there is a lot of discrimination because of all the multi-cultures there is. i wish that one day there wouldn’t be any discrimination and everyone would be consider the same. Unfortuantely that is like impossible to happen! This isn’t fair to the people that tried really hard and studied a lot to pass the test and put their heart and soul. Everyone should be tested the same and people that really did pass should get the opportunity to be a firefigthter. I would get really mad if i tried really hard on a test and for some reason i don’t pass because i’m hispanic. People should start being more fair and putting themselves in their position and how would they like it if they didn’t pass a test just because of them not because they weren’t capable of passing. Hopefully this changes for once but if it doesn’t that at least they don’t come up with this types of ridiculous stuff.
I honestly do not see how this case is “reverse discrimination”. From what I read and understood, the firefighters from New Haven, Conn. took a test for a potential raise. Almost all of the people that passed the test were white, and this is discrimination because no blacks could pass the test? I am a little unclear on this part. And then they decided to throw out all of the test, the money spent, and the time spend studying that can never be reversed.
I do not think that this case had anything to do with the 5th and 14th Amendments. The only way it would be considered is if black people were given a different test, or the test were graded differently. The test questions may have been slightly race biased, but to throw all of the tests out were a little extreme. The City Officials could have reworded the questions at the most, and nothing else.
I think that the anti-discrimination laws should have been disregarded in this case. They clearly state that the test was created in a way to help minorities receive higher tests scores but that clearly didn’t happen. They obviously didn’t want it enough to go out and study like the dyslexic firefighter did. The Caucasian firefighters had a stronger drive to do something that they loved and they were denied it because not enough people of color were going to be admitted to higher ranks.
On the other side, I can clearly understand why they decided to throw out the tests. This world that we live in now is ridiculous. Not enough African Americans passed the test so they were not eligible for the promotion. A minister was already talking about how there are not enough people of color in the higher ranks. If white guys were to be promoted and African Americans were to be left behind, people would definitely start bitching even though they clearly were not qualified. People assume that you are being racist but they don’t see the whole picture which is none of the African Americans received high enough test scores after the test was made easier. They should have taken more initiative and studied harder if they really wanted the job. I would probably throw the tests out too just so I wouldn’t have to deal with problems in the future.
Even though it is pretty f’ ed up for the firefighters who did pass the test, its just the kind of world we live in now. People of color need to be in the higher ranks of companies so they don’t get sued. It is just a lot easier to throw tests out than to deal with discrimination law suits. Once someone saw an all white firefighting crew of captains and lieutenants and then lower ranking African Americans, someone would definitely stir up some trouble for the fire department. It is just a lot easier to have people of color in higher ranking jobs than have to deal with law suits.
But then again, these laws do need to be there because there still are a lot of people who discriminate because of someone’s skin color. In this case, the white firefighters should get the promotions they deserve and someone of color can come along and grab a higher ranking job when there is available space. It is too easy to turn things into something they aren’t so its just a lot easier to go with what needs to be done. In this case, African Americans are needed to comply with certain laws and that is what will be done to avoid problems. The firefigters should get their promotions even though it was not a promised thing. It probably won’t happen but that would be nice if it did. It’s an unfair world out there but these things happen so I guess people just have to deal with it.
Discrimination is discrimination. Reverse discrimination, in my opinion, doesn’t make sense. Anybody can discriminate against anybody. Calling it reverse discrimination is like a double negative. Or so it seems.
I know a lot about certain races not getting specific jobs, because my mom works at a staffing agency. She works for companies and finds them workers. However, no matter who she finds, the company can turn them down. The company can also be specific about what races they want. Illegal? Yea. But it’s not stopping them. Messed up? Very.
It’s sad and unfair what happened to these men who tried to become firefighters, but discrimination has been around along time. It doesn’t make it right, and you can fight it all you want, but not a whole is done about it.
But still, I think reverse discrimination is a dumb term.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/reverse-discrimination
ANYONE, can be discriminated against, and it happens everyday.
So, what I’m reading from this article is that there was a test distributed to the fire department so that they could get a chance for a promotion, and for this test to work “supposedly” they passed it out to all the races so that everyone could get an equal opportunity to get a chance for a promotion. The test givers wanted everything to be equal but when it turned out the outcome wasn’t what they wanted, some caucasians and two hispanics. They threw everything out like it didn’t even happen. So thats really neglecting those who actually passed the test. Okay, so they gave a test to see if some have the knowledge to pass and get the chance to be promoted, it is the fault of the ones that dont pass that dont get the promotion, its their own fault. Also, the fire department said that they wanted a more diverse department, more diverse races, but then how are they going to turn down those who also want to join the department also? Thats a form of discrimination against those of the same race i guess you could say.
i don’t get it. the test was given out equally. Some races didn’t pass.
but in the end i just want capable firefighters who won’t let me die. i don’t care what race they are.
so they decided to perfectly capable firefighters? what a waste.
I find it hard to believe that race interferes with skill. You need to know the requirements to pass the test, and just because you’re white, doesn’t mean you know the material better. If anything, the blacks or mexicans getting their score requirements lowered is unfair is discrimination against whites. There should be a set requirement to join the firefighter crew, physical or mentally no matter what. Its unfair to make it easier for blacks to join, because if they don’t know the material they shouldn’t be trying to save people. Lowering the requirements will risk lives. In the case involving Frank Ricci..he spent 8-13 hours a day studying and still failed. He didn’t fail from not studying enough, didn’t fail because of his race, he failed because he didn’t understand or couldn’t grasp the topic.
Okay…hmmm. Well this case is crazy. Everyone should be treated equally regardless of age or race. If a certain amount of a minority race did not pass the test then those who did should take credit for the fact that they qualify for the promotion. They should’t have thrown the test away just because a certain race did not qualify. Its unconstituitional
I believe the city should not have thrown out the tests. Sure, the people who passed the test are going to be upset. It only makes sense to feel that way after spending so much time/ effort/ money to pass only to have your test thrown out. If someone must pass the test to be considered for promotion then that’s exactly who should be considered. We cannot trade standard qualifications for racial diversity. That said, can’t the city just have all the people re-take a test? The people who passed the first time should still pass, if they are really qualified, and if the reason african americans didnt pass was because of bias from the test, they will have another chance.
I have to admit, this is really stupid of the city. So what if most the people that passed were white. The color of your skin should have anything to due with failing a test. It is the people’s fault for not studying enough. And I would expect at this point in our history people shouldn’t think too much about a majority of whites passing the test. Kudos to them they desrved it for studying their asses off. Really this is stupid. You dont see me yelling out to the world that, “THERE WERE NO ASIANS MENTIONED AT ALL IN THIS ARTICLE AT ALL, AND THE ARTICLE MADE IT SOUND LIKE NO ASIANS PASSED THE TEST!” Honestly who really cares now-a-days if they didnt study, they dont deserve to pass. We shouldnt punish people who studied, its just not right. I understand the city’s view in wanting to be diverse but hey, maybe the city should start thinking of us all as one people rather than seperating us by our slight diferences like what our backgrounds are.
“The appeals court panel concluded that city officials acted within the law when they threw out the test results. They were simply trying to fulfill their obligations under anti-discrimination laws when confronted with test results that produced a disproportionate racial impact, the panel said.”
18 individuals got in the way of the city trying to fulfill their obligations. Or at least one of the 27 individuals who tested did not do their part?
Why not just say we want to hire this number of people for this position and this number of people need to be of this specific race because we want the management to represent to the community it serves.